'Juliet' - Character Transfer

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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by Switch on Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:44 pm

Painful History wrote:Why should I change my character when all that you're supplying me with in terms of criticism are melodramatic niches of your own?

Wanna know why those people get killed? Because they show it off to everyone around them.

Want to know why people are applying for those characters? Because it's Fallout.

Want to know why I gave all of that rant away towards you? Because you deserved it, you've been mad this whole time, at me, at dog, at everyone else you posted on, because you can't bear to see someone start off with more than you do for a reason other than "he should because he has a superior OOC status to me". You've been passive aggressive, you've been sarcastic and you certainly haven't been giving away nearly enough constructive criticism to make up for it. All you've been giving are personal niches of yours and hates that I couldn't honestly care less about. "I don't want you here cuz you has guns ;C;C;C;C" Please.

Sorry if I bothered you with my app, do you want to see a worse one?
Oh no! I didn't get my wench character on a fallout roleplay server >Sad I guess I have to blame everyone else for such ridicule responses, and stupid application!!!! How about instead of bitching like a moronic 12 year old, you perfect what you did wrong and take peoples criticism as advice, kiddo.

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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by Painful History on Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:56 pm

Okay, so that rant might've been a bit too sarcastic for a few people here who can't understand the basic concept of fighting fire with fire(which I admittedly, shouldn't have done, but I couldn't really care less at that point.) I also have a clearer head now that I've taken my time to just calm down, take a breather and go back through everything I said and while I don't regret any of it, I admit some of it was stupid. I'm still laughing at how seriously you took sarcasm though.


Now for replies to Gunrunner fella.
Well, yes, she's constantly on edge in her backstory, still, the place she lives in does make people need to live like that. As for the Jet and the Pain. She kept taking it because it dulled her senses for a bit despite provoking pain after, chems helped calming her down despite the fact she'd feel pain after, eventually, she did try quitting when the pain became a bit more abrupt, but at that point it was too late, I should've specified and elaborated on it when I wrote it, I'm not saying the backstory doesn't have its flaws, it does and I might have to partially rewrite certain parts up to my current standards, but the basic outline of it is still there.

She was never a nice person, by the way, she was always 'bad'. She never really valued human life as she should and she's always been the type of girl that could kill someone to achieve a goal she wants really badly, again, I should've specified that and I didn't in her backstory, I only did it at the end, my bad.

Forcing her to see her parents die was a way to make Hyperthymesia a more relevant flaw, so it plays against the character rather in favor of her and no, they didn't do that, but they are cruel people. If you want to know what happened to them, they were all killed by NCR Soldiers when they were hired to kill a Sharecropper family.

It's part of her background, but I assumed he was mentioning the backstory as background, my bad. She did avoid making friends and people avoided her, in fact she was actually jailed for a day when she snapped at someone pushing a water gun against her back because she thought it was an actual weapon. Needless to say, she's been a lot more careful since then and less snappy, she's always been avoiding people more. She has always avoided crowds and the like, those two people I mentioned were her only two friends. The other 'friend' used her vulnerable state to recruit her into a gang and make her work for them.

Also, yes, the personal attack against him was uncalled for and I apologize for that. I stepped over the boundaries I shouldn't, but the way he was structuring his criticism was getting under my skin.

He didn't mention rape in Romeo or Juliet, he just thought that Romeo and Juliet was not a tragic story and something more 'edgy' as you so keenly describe would fit the tragic section a lot better and yes, that was actually meant to make you laugh, what came after didn't though.

Rape scene was awful? Probably, it was my first time attempting something like that and I'm not a fan of writing any type of rape scene or even rp'ing one. I thought it was at least acceptable, I guess I was wrong though, still, the man in question was a gambler and a chem user. He was highly unstable mentally and that day had been exceptionally hard on him. He had to take care of a child for 7 years, which he never really asked for and he thought he should take something back, probably could elaborate on it a bit more, once again.

Another thing to note, she's actually more nervous now more than ever, if anything, she's drifting towards being more antisocial then before and more cautious around people. I'll specify something here that I'm going to add to the app and should've done so(my bad). She might have the SKILL and KNOWLEDGE to handle a gun, but during tense circumstances... She can't do it. She's just too much of a nervous wreck to be able to hold it properly. If she's shooting an animal that isn't a Deathclaw or an Yao Guai. She's fine. A ghoul? Her aim might tremble a bit, but she can still aim fairly accurate. Another person that IS NOT OBVIOUSLY a Fiend or a Raider? Then oh boy is she going to struggle. As for Fiends and Raiders, it varies. She came to terms with killing, she doesn't beat herself over it anymore, but she still has trouble with holding that weapon when the time comes.

Ever shot a gun?
No, I haven't, I've held a rifle in my hand and those are quite heavy, my arms were trembling after holding it for a few minutes in a firing position.

As for the rest, she's better than the populace around her age that hasn't received any kind of training, hence better than average. The Sergeant taught her the basics and after that it's been touch and go. She doesn't know any tricks, she doesn't know how to compensate for wind, gravity, sights being screwed up and what not. She can't properly adjust sights on a weapon, merely get them close to acceptable range.

It's actually not been confirmed what NCR armor actually is, but it's assumed to be a steel plate with some sort of kevlar-like fabric around, or at least an elastic, resistant fabric that lowers kinetic force.

As for the weapon thing. Yes, it is for character development and no, I'm not dropping them. She was given them by someone she cared about deeply and it actually helps her calm down at times, she rarely even uses the service rifle because she can't shoot that well with it, despite it being made to be able to be shot by nearly anyone, but she still keeps it around for keepsake.

As for the guy that just posted? His posts came across to me that way, so I decided that I was done with it and would fight fire with fire, a stupid idea, yes, but something I did out of frustration, as many people do. I'm attached to my characters, plenty so, but I can certainly recognize flaws in them as none of them are perfect at all. Still, they're mine and they have plenty of RP behind them, I'm sorry if you think the character has an 'edgy' past, but there are people like this IRL and in Fallout. It doesn't mean that her personality is inherently edgy, she made choices, she shot people to get to a goal, to tie loose ends so she could start completely fresh. Does it eat away at her? No. Did it make her used to killing people? No.

Also, how much better are you then me when you reply in the same manner to me that I replied to him? See? We can both play the same game, don't call people 'kids' when they act out of frustration, you don't really know who's behind the keyboard and how his real-life might have influenced him to reply in a way he shouldn't, you know.
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by Nasca on Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:02 pm

The Gunrunner wrote:-snip-

love you babe
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by Painful History on Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:18 pm

Small little other thing. Coincidences are forced on every story you see, every book, because it's needed for the story to progress most of the times. Being in the right or wrong place at the right or wrong time propels the story forwards. "How nice it is that the main character studies this exact thing that the story needs to progress." You see, those types of things. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the backstory, but I've got a majority of people saying it's good, sorry it doesn't live up to your vision of story telling and doesn't really suit your niche tastes, but I still think it has quality despite the fact I'm able to improve it and expand it. Writing is a project and a project is never truly finished, in my honest opinion.

I don't mean this as sarcasm this time around, I took your criticism in and I can see the flaws, it's littered with them, things I could improve and expand, so thank you for that. Your notes have been taken into consideration and, while I might not improve upon this specific story because I feel like writing it has already taught me things I did not have before, I'll put it to use in the future, yet I'm not going to say that it's a bad story when the majority says it isn't, including a grown adult I know personally in real life and a friend of hers which is a small, published writer.

Also banter and sarcasm =/= being childish. And yes, I am stubborn, I'm stupidly stubborn, I'm aware of that.
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by FlameCow on Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:02 pm

-snip-
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by FlameCow on Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:25 am

I just read through the backstory, finally got the page to load. There's a lot of plot armor and unexplained events. The writing style and consistency makes it very difficult to read through. It's unnecessarily long, has a lot of 'fake detail', and run-on sentences. For example, this snippet is completely filled with redundant information; fluff and jargon that adds nothing to the story.
Your Backstory wrote:The  9mm  bullet  was  propelled  through  the  air  due  to  the  explosive  ignition  of  the gunpowder.  The  lead  bullet,  jacketed  with  copper  alloy,  forced  its  way  through  his  back, puncturing  the  skin  and  muscle  and  lodging  itself  in  his  spine  severing  several  nervous pathways.

A lot of elements in the story are really cliche (child's parents are killed, child has to fare on their own, unlikely character becomes tough) and that would be fine if they were disguised as something fresh. In a character story you also want a 'rock bottom' moment where the main character is on the verge of failure, but I don't think that was present either. The writing felt amateur. Check out this page or this other page if you want to write good, interesting stories.

Since I am judging your application solely on the original post of this thread, I don't have many reasons to +support. The backstory was pretty convoluted and I wasn't really worried for the main character at any time. A lot of the events seemed unrealistic. You clearly put a lot of love into the backstory but the end result didn't come together well for me. The application asks for a lot of equipment and traits without clear explanation of their origin.

-support, but that is subject to change. Feel free to debate with me.
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by Painful History on Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:20 am

But... Those elements are there for that, to add flourish... If you don't like a writing style with detail and flourish then you won't like that story, but I have others that have more and less of that. I write with a lot of detail in mind, it was something I picked up by reading my favorite author, also what unlikely character becomes tough? Her? She's even worse than before now, she didn't really become all that tough, she just tried to pass it on as such at the end, which worsened her condition a lot. She isn't bothered and doesn't beat herself for killing people, but she certainly is still a nervous wreck when it comes to that, even more than before(check the flaws section).

As for convoluted? Maybe, I can see you point. It does revolve around the same subject for most of it, it twists it's way into the past(don't know if that's what you meant), but I still think it follows a logical progression from point A to point B. The traits are clearly explained, at least most of them, minus the weapon handling and things related to that. She was with the Followers for quite a while, they have a hefty supply of books and knowledge and she helped them in a lot of things while there, which is where she picked up most of her training.

Again, this backstory is fairly old, so it's riddled with flaws as it was my second major project after Fallout Tanya, as for fake detail, that's called flourish. Writers use it in books either so people can create a mental image of what's going on IE. That snippet(which is meant to make you cringe fyi because of the mental imaging) or to add a soft degree of filler that allows the book to run slightly longer or even to simply add some more detail and immersion to the world around. This backstory wasn't written with a 'this is a backstory' mentality to it. This backstory was written with a 'this is a short story, practice for my writing' type of mentality to it. If I wanted just the backstory, honestly, I could make it 2-3 paragraphs and still contain all the vital information that's in those 17 pages.

Plus there is a rock bottom moment. She kills the person who was once her best friend, two of his best friends and nearly overdoses all to drown out what she perceives as 'bothersome' memories that pain her to no end. Little did she know, doing drugs and what she did only made the condition worse in the long run, I think that's a pretty big failure not only as an individual, but in a moral and ethical standpoint.
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by FlameCow on Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:32 am

Realistically speaking, it's just not interesting to read. I can't think of a single person who would rather read lines and lines of descriptions as opposed to reading about the plot, characters, and what is happening to move the story along. If the details in your story don't have meaning or progress the plot, why write them?

Backstory, again wrote:The  9mm  bullet  was  propelled  through  the  air  due  to  the  explosive  ignition  of  the gunpowder.  The  lead  bullet,  jacketed  with  copper  alloy,
This truly is uninteresting to read. It is detailed, yes, but it paints no picture that the reader didn't already imagine. It is completely useless; it does not help advance the story, flesh out a character, or evoke an emotion. I never said I don't appreciate good, detailed writing. I certainly will say that I do not appreciate writing that tries to sound more intelligent than it actually is.

Writing the snippet from the above quote is like writing, "The man had begun to walk. First, he lifts his left foot from the ground - rotating his hip and stamping it down, further forward than the other foot. His right foot begins to move similarly, now going down in front of the left." Unless the detail is relevant to the story, it should not be written about.

If this backstory is riddled with flaws and was written two years ago, why would you post it? You are purposefully subjecting the people of this forum to content you know is flawed?

Back to the detail thing? Let's say a character in a story is walking home after buying some groceries, and sees some people on his way back home. He sees a homeless man with a big and bushy graying beard, a green army jacket, and dirty ripped jeans. The homeless man wears a set of run-down sneakers. The character also sees a tiny old woman wearing a light pink button-up shirt and sweat pants. These characters are not relevant to the story. Maybe if the character was very paranoid and thought everyone was out to kill him, details like this could be relevant. But since those characters are not important to the mood, plot, or location; you don't need to include them in the text.
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by Painful History on Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:42 am

Because it was the backstory that I wrote for the character? I'm not going to rebuild it fully from scratch when I have a lot more things going on that require my attention at the moment.

If that's how you see it, that's how you see it, but right now you're giving me one line that was placed there so you could see how it happened in detail. I could've shortened that sentence to "she fired the pistol", but then again, it's only a few less words than what is there.

Anyway, Snyder can lock this once he finally comes, I've already come to the conclusions I wanted.
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by Nasca on Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:18 pm

thank christ that's over with
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by The Gunrunner on Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:24 am

Going to respond now to maybe wrap this up.

Well, yes, she's constantly on edge in her backstory, still, the place she lives in does make people need to live like that. As for the Jet and the Pain. She kept taking it because it dulled her senses for a bit despite provoking pain after, chems helped calming her down despite the fact she'd feel pain after, eventually, she did try quitting when the pain became a bit more abrupt, but at that point it was too late, I should've specified and elaborated on it when I wrote it, I'm not saying the backstory doesn't have its flaws, it does and I might have to partially rewrite certain parts up to my current standards, but the basic outline of it is still there.
Please add the elaborations.

She was never a nice person, by the way, she was always 'bad'. She never really valued human life as she should and she's always been the type of girl that could kill someone to achieve a goal she wants really badly, again, I should've specified that and I didn't in her backstory, I only did it at the end, my bad.

Forcing her to see her parents die was a way to make Hyperthymesia a more relevant flaw, so it plays against the character rather in favor of her and no, they didn't do that, but they are cruel people. If you want to know what happened to them, they were all killed by NCR Soldiers when they were hired to kill a Sharecropper family.

It's part of her background, but I assumed he was mentioning the backstory as background, my bad. She did avoid making friends and people avoided her, in fact she was actually jailed for a day when she snapped at someone pushing a water gun against her back because she thought it was an actual weapon. Needless to say, she's been a lot more careful since then and less snappy, she's always been avoiding people more. She has always avoided crowds and the like, those two people I mentioned were her only two friends. The other 'friend' used her vulnerable state to recruit her into a gang and make her work for them.

He didn't mention rape in Romeo or Juliet, he just thought that Romeo and Juliet was not a tragic story and something more 'edgy' as you so keenly describe would fit the tragic section a lot better and yes, that was actually meant to make you laugh, what came after didn't though.

Rape scene was awful? Probably, it was my first time attempting something like that and I'm not a fan of writing any type of rape scene or even rp'ing one. I thought it was at least acceptable, I guess I was wrong though, still, the man in question was a gambler and a chem user. He was highly unstable mentally and that day had been exceptionally hard on him. He had to take care of a child for 7 years, which he never really asked for and he thought he should take something back, probably could elaborate on it a bit more, once again.
The backstory just needed patching for the sake of sense. I was trying to be helpful at first, for the record.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The backstory was passable for what my changed version of what you wanted was.
Still waiting for snyder.

Also, yes, the personal attack against him was uncalled for and I apologize for that. I stepped over the boundaries I shouldn't, but the way he was structuring his criticism was getting under my skin.
You're not supposed to apologize to me, History.

I'll specify something here that I'm going to add to the app and should've done so(my bad). She might have the SKILL and KNOWLEDGE to handle a gun, but during tense circumstances... She can't do it. She's just too much of a nervous wreck to be able to hold it properly. If she's shooting an animal that isn't a Deathclaw or an Yao Guai. She's fine. A ghoul? Her aim might tremble a bit, but she can still aim fairly accurate. Another person that IS NOT OBVIOUSLY a Fiend or a Raider? Then oh boy is she going to struggle. As for Fiends and Raiders, it varies.
These details need to be added, man. This situational stuff isn't common, so no one expects it.

As for the rest, she's better than the populace around her age that hasn't received any kind of training, hence better than average. The Sergeant taught her the basics and after that it's been touch and go. She doesn't know any tricks, she doesn't know how to compensate for wind, gravity, sights being screwed up and what not. She can't properly adjust sights on a weapon, merely get them close to acceptable range.
Right. I missed what you said about the NCR sergeant and had only remembered "Again, she's a good shot because she dedicated a small portion of her life to this..."
Anyway, it remains misleading; "...she's better than the populace around her age that hasn't received any kind of training, hence better than average." You don't need to do this. In fact, you shouldn't do this because it's not the system that is in place; 'average' means 'how good are you compared to the general ability' here. It's not 'how good are you compared to others that have similar details to you.' A nine year old with 'proficient' next to 'small arms' says "I'm a marksman." It is not "I'm a marksman compared to other nine year olds," but instead just "I'm a marksman."

I should've honestly specified that the weapon handling only applied to pistols, rifles and automatic weapons with low recoil, things she can handle with her lack of strength.
I'm trying to refrain from typing anything that'll continue arguments for another year... But, dude... add the details. Add everything that makes the perks situational.

As for the weapon thing. Yes, it is for character development and no, I'm not dropping them. She was given them by someone she cared about deeply and it actually helps her calm down at times, she rarely even uses the service rifle because she can't shoot that well with it, despite it being made to be able to be shot by nearly anyone, but she still keeps it around for keepsake.
I'm just not going to talk about this anymore. It's not going anywhere.
Waiting for Snyder.

As for the guy that just posted? His posts came across to me that way, so I decided that I was done with it and would fight fire with fire, a stupid idea, yes, but something I did out of frustration, as many people do. I'm attached to my characters, plenty so, but I can certainly recognize flaws in them as none of them are perfect at all. Still, they're mine and they have plenty of RP behind them, I'm sorry if you think the character has an 'edgy' past, but there are people like this IRL and in Fallout. It doesn't mean that her personality is inherently edgy, she made choices, she shot people to get to a goal, to tie loose ends so she could start completely fresh. Does it eat away at her? No. Did it make her used to killing people? No.
If you're not apologizing to the person you snapped at, then just say "K. Done now." It's shitty of us to accept your apology on his behalf. At least, assuming there is an apology.

Also, how much better are you then me when you reply in the same manner to me that I replied to him? See? We can both play the same game, don't call people 'kids' when they act out of frustration, you don't really know who's behind the keyboard and how his real-life might have influenced him to reply in a way he shouldn't, you know.
Taking this one to pm.
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

Post by Captain Snyder on Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:07 pm

Not going to make a comment on the application yet, but I'd like to see this character nerfed a bit. Lotta Perks, not so many quirks. For a 24 year old, you know a lot. Maybe too much
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Re: 'Juliet' - Character Transfer

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